Jays come up short
TORONTO — Well, I for one was a little surprised at just how active the Blue Jays were at this year’s deadline. No, they didn’t swing any deals in the end, but Toronto came close to acquiring Raul Ibanez and was in on talks about Jason Bay.
The Jays might’ve been able to obtain British Columbia’s Bay, but Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi said the price was simply too steep. It’s believed that the Pirates wanted outfield prospect Travis Snider and starter Shaun Marcum, and that might have been just for starters.
Said Ricciardi: “It was pretty steep for us. At the end of the day, we may have been able to get the player, but it would’ve been at a very, very steep price and I don’t know if that would’ve helped us going forward, as opposed to maybe setting us back a little more.”
As for Ibanez, the Jays were ready to pull the trigger until the M’s pulled the plug. Reports are that Toronto was gearing up to send to players from its active roster to Seattle, but the Mariners decided against the move with minutes to spare before the 4 p.m. ET deadline.
Said Ricciardi: “We had some really good talks with Seattle. I’d say they were pretty intense and pretty in depth. We thought, at one point, there was a possibility to get something done there. But, it just didn’t come to fruition. We were ready to go forward. … Both parties worked hard. At the end of the day, they probably weren’t as comfortable making the trade as we were. That happens.”
So, that’s that. The Blue Jays are who they are and Ricciardi said he still thinks the club is still in it, even with four teams ahead of them in the division and five ahead of them in the Wild Card standings. Why else would the Jays be in buying mode and also holding on to starter A.J. Burnett? Toronto wants to see if it has a late-season run in there somewhere.
Ricciardi also addressed a couple other topics today. There was the “encouraging news” of Dustin McGowan’s shoulder surgery. McGowan will need 8-9 months of recovery time, but can begin a throwing program in roughly four months. He should be ready for Spring Training, since he required no work on his rotator cuff.
As for Scott Rolen’s recently revealed shoulder woes, Ricciardi said:
“We talked to the doctor again today. Our worries aren’t that great. I think what happened with Scotty is, if you know him at all, he’s not a go-easy guy. I think when he’s working on something, it’s an excess of swings, excess of batting practice. We just have to get him to back off a little bit and give his shoulder a chance to rest a little bit. I talked to the doctor who performed his surgery again today and, medically, nobody has any concerns about him long-term continuing to play. He just needs a couple of days here and there in the course of the middle of the summer. But, we’re not worried at all. Like I’ve said, before we made the trade, we did all the background check we had to do on the surgery and we checked with all the rehab people. We had our doctors check. His shoulder is as strong as it can possibly be. It just gets a little fatigued from overwork.”
As for the “controversy” of calling up Scott Richmond, taking Team Canada’s ace away from the Olympic squad just days before they take off for Beijing:
“Obviously, the first thing we thought about is, ‘We’re not going to bring this kid up for one start and hurt his chances of playing on the Olympic team and putting the Olympic team in any kind of jeopardy.’ We talked about that at length. We said, ‘If this is going to be one start, then we wouldn’t bring the kid up.’ But, I also think that a lot’s being made out of this. Every kid dreams of playing in the big leagues. I think if you went and asked all those Canadian Olympic kids last night, when they were on the field, if they wanted to switch uniforms with a big-league guy right there, as opposed to going to China, I think you’d have a consensus of saying they’d rather be a big-league player. I think that’s an unfair shot at us, saying that we did something that was against the Canadian Olympic team. We have great respect for what they do and we have a great relationship with them. But, if we get a chance to bring a guy up to help our Major Legaue team, unfortunately, we’re not going to let that get in the way of us making the decision. Listen, I was a part of the U.S. Olympic selection committee twice, so I know what gos into it. But, I also know that when a guy comes to the big leagues, nothing gets in the way of that and that’s really what the situation was with Richmond.”
So, there you have it. I’m not hitting the road to Texas, so expect a lack of blogging over the next few days unless there’s news to discuss.
~JB
Major League Bastian 
Well, there you have it. JP had no intention of rebuilding this team by acquiring young talent. Instead, he tried to trade for major league players to save his job. My only hope for this team is that JP is let go at the end of the year and the team admits that it is time to rebuild with the young talent they have in their own farm system. Let the kids play! My fear is that either JP will be kept, or he will be replaced by a Godfrey butt kisser who preaches the old message that we are just a year or two away from contending.
Rmatty,
I don’t want them to get rid of B.J. I want them to get rid of his contract….B.J. just happens to be the guy who is signed to it. I know he can be a very valuable closer to the Jays but the guy is making 10 million a season despite the fact that I do like what he can bring. They have Accardo, Downs and possibly Janssen as guys who can be an effective closer, so why not free up an extra 10 million if they can get a good prospect or 2 while doing it. They can then use that extra $10million in the offseason for the bat or 2 or pitcher (to replace Burnett) that they need.
http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/2008/07/31/jays_trade_deadline/
JP was asked about the availability of Barajas.
As much as I would of loved to see Jason Bay come to Toronto, I wouldnt want to part with Marcum or Snyder right away, and I wouldnt want J.P for another year. This also goes to show that J.P doesnt have any plans for Lind, I mean with Wells in center, Rios in right, Bay in left…Lind not in Toronto. I think Lind will be just as good as Bay is now by next year.
Freedom, actually Lind is better already than Bay in the most important stat, hitting with risp. Lind is .283 and Bay is .216.
But-in my view, JP never even inquired about Jason Bay. A 3 team deal doesnt go together in 1 day-it takes longer than that and if you read Jordans post, JP is stating he called today. It’s all BS.
However, the one that makes no sense is Raul Ibanez-unless the two players he offered were Wilkerson and Mench. Ibanez is 36. The last thing we need is another old guy on his last legs-we already have 4 of those with Wilkerson, Mench, Zaun, and Stewart.
What Sportsnet reported is JP offered David Purcey and Brandon League for Ibanez. If he had done that deal, we should have got together, gone down to The Rogers Center and lynch the SOB.
Sportsnet denied the fact that JP offered Purcey and League…I am sure even JP isnt that stupid.
I also commend JP on not following further talks when Snider and Marcum’s names were mentioned. He might have called today just to show he is doing something but that does mean he is acutally doing something.
Who did you all want him to trade? Don’t you get it, no one wants Eckstein, Zaun, Mench, or Wilkerson. Even if someone did, he would get nothing of significance back. The fact is, no one knows what happened in the front office today, so it is pointless to argue about it. This team is set up to win, they just need a couple more quality bats. JP is not the complete disaster that everyone thinks, but if he doesn’t go after ManRam, then he doesn’t deserve the job anymore.
Boston would keep Manny before trading him in the ALE . There wasn’t a chance of Manny coming here or to an AL team . Its not so much the players that teams didn’t want but their salaries and Jays can’t afford to carry all these player’s salaries. There is a lot more to trading than “you give me this and I will give you that” .
For those interested in the GM aspect, this article is well worth reading ,
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/baseball/mlb/07/31/aschburner.ryan/index.html?eref=T1
plus263
True we don’t know what went on in the front office. What we do know is JP tried to trade for another old, underperforming overpaid outfielder in Raul Ibanez. Whether one thinks we’re close or not ( and I don’t) doesn’t really matter. Ibanaez is not going to help this team and to offer two of anything for him is ridiculous-unless it included Eckstein, Stewart and or Wilkerson. Lets get rid of dead wood, not add more. With Wells coming back soon, Lind in left, Rios in right, and Stairs at dh, what position do you expect Ibanez to play?
Harry-Actually Sportsnet reported it was Purcey and League and the Jays denied it. Although it doesn’t matter one way or the other, my tendancy is to believe Sportsnet over JP.
We know JP lies.
I agree with Sumner, there is no way we should be trading for a OF or a C, luckily he didn’t try to get another C.
Lets see the situation in OF, Wells, Lind, Rios, Snider, thats 4 quality bats where one of them will play DH.
If they inquired about Barajas I would have traded him, he isn’t doing much better than Zaun anyways, and if another team inquires then we are probably bound to get something in return.
You are right, Zaun, Eckstein, Wilkerson and Mench won’t get us anything in signficance back, but if another team signs them then we do get a draft pick for Zaun and Eckstein.
JP is going to do what is best for JP — that is why JP was trying to acquire Ibanez. A few more wins, and maybe he keeps his job. He makes a trade, now it appears like he is trying to do something. All he is doing is replacing one broken part, with another borken part. A good analogy for JP’s managerial methodology would be the “shell game”. If it somehow comes out that Sportsnet was correct when they reported it was Purcey and League in the package, there is absolutely no hope for this team, short term or long term, becasue the GM is both insane and desprate. Again, I blame the media, since the media drives things for the most part. Where is the outrage in the media regarding a .500 team once again, and JP’s inability or unwillingness to move Burnett or anyone else? It has been 7 years, yet he continues to be given a free ride. It was the media that got rid of Ferguson. Don’t kid yourself, if the media did not constantly talk about his lack of performance, MLE would have him in the job today. Unbelievably, the media seems to be more apathetic than the team…and that is saying something. Now with the olympics starting, the focus of the media will be on the lone Canadian who wins a bronze medal in sport-fishing. JP will likely fly under the the radar, free to take a kick at can next year!
JP likes to win the battle and loose the war, because winning the battle = him staying longer
Well, at least there’s Rolen for Glaus. 😉
–Jeff
http://redstatebluestate.mlblogs.com/
If JP was working for the yankees can you guess what the only job Steinbrenner would have him doing,Steinbrenner,HEY JP dont forget to dump out my trash can tonight and get here early tomorow the hall needs mopping.
JP would still be the GM only this time it means great mopper.
Jordan posted the Jays are looking for more output from the catchers.
“Since Gaston joined the Jays, Barajas had hit just .193 (17-for-88) with two doubles, three home runs and 10 RBIs. During that time, he watched his average drop from .289 to .252, while also striking out 11 times.
Zaun had hit even worse, batting .173 (9-for-52) since Gaston’s arrival. The perennial backup has managed only one home run, two doubles and eight RBIs in that span, watching his season average plummet from .269 to .245.”
****The solution is calling up two of either Diaz, Arenciba or Jaspe from the minor leagues, get rid of Zaun and Barajas and quit the whining.
Sumner, I agree with you on your solution to bring up Arenciba or Diaz. AS for everyone ripping J.P. is it really that bad ? they are a .500 team with poor hitters. If they can just go out and sign a power bat and another good bat this offseason this team will be in good shape but i guess that’s just my opinion. Harry mentioned Lind, Wells, Rios and Snider – 2 of those guys were drafted by J.P. a couple of you mentioned that Lind is actually better then Jason Bay and most of you have said Bay is a good hitter. Sumner, mentioned Arenciba and Diaz…..again drafted by J.P. You guys also mentioned how stupid J.P. would’ve been to give up League and Purcey in a trade (he didn’t by the way) and guess what ? Purcey was drafted by J.P.
Anyway my point is things aren’t as bad as you guys are making it seem..they do have young talent that can make an impact soon. To suggest that J.P. has completely ruined this team is alitte ridiculous. As for getting rid of dead wood, the season is a lost cause anyway but I think it’s safe to assume that Wilkerson, Mench and Eckstein wont be back next year.
Uncle Teddy has tons of dough so who cares what the BEAST makes. ha. B.J is just too good to let go unless we get overwelmed with a deal of young studs. J.P should use the off season to try and extend B.J while his value coming off TJ is as low as it will ever be.
Although I think JP looks like Gonzo and I wouldn’t trust him as far as I could throw him, (maybe not, he is pretty skinny) he has made some decent draft pics (minus Romero over Tulo) and has brought in some quality players (Burnett, Ryan). He just hasn’t done that bad of a job as some of you say he has.
Everyone seems to forget that when this franchise was winning it was winning with the leagues highest payroll. Coincidence? I think not.
Dear JP Defenders:
If the goal is to field a .500 team for 7 years in a row, JP has done a wonderful job. If the goal is to field a competitive team, JP has done a poor job. If the goal is to field a contender, JP has done a terrible job. If the goal is to bring a division title to Toronto, JP has failed. If the goal is to bring a championship to Toronto, JP has failed. If the goal is to build a strong farm system, JP has failed according to the experts that rank our farm system among the weakest in all of baseball. If the goal is to bring respect to the organization by not bad mouthing players on other teams, JP has failed. If the goal is to bring respect and optimism to this team so that free agents will want to sign here (without being paid 3 times what they are actually worth), JP has failed. If the goal is to tell the truth to your fans, JP has failed. I guess you guys who seek to defend JP must also be leaf fans — satisfied with 40 years of mediocrity — willing, like JP, to dream you are only a couple of players away from baseball nirvana!
Guys you both forget something-we’re in 4th place-that’s really all you have to say.
Yes Gsumner, but it is how we arrived in 4th place that is the issue.
Oops! And how we get out of 4th place, other than falling to 5th.
I think Enigma and Rmatty have good points, burt you might be right, however
Do we have a great pitching staff? YES
Do we have a great bullpen? YES.
do we have a great offense? NO WAY.
Do we have any good players on our offence? A COUPLE OF PLAYERS.
Do we have any good batters coming up? YES A COUPLE
Did this team have an awesome offensive year under JP? YES
What are we missing? JUST 1 – 2 MORE GOOD BATTERS (in combination with the youngsters)
So in a way, yes we are mediocre right now, yes we were mediocre before BUT WE HAVE BEEN A GOOD OFFENSIVE TEAM, WE HAVE BEEN A GOOD PITCHING TEAM,WE ARE ONLY MISSING A COUPLE OF PLAYERS, WHICH COULD THEN PUT US OVER THE TOP. SO EVEN THOUGH WE MIGHT NOT BE GOOD NOW I THINK WE HAVE A GOOD SHOT AT THE FUTURE.
Saying that, does JP need to go? YES. because he can;t trade and he signs the wrong people. I think unknowingly he might have done a few good things, but he doesn’t have the vision to complete it. So yes WE ARE NOT TOTALLY BAD, BUT JP NEEDS TO GO.
Here we go again they can’t hit with RISP.
Let’s not forget he also had the fortitude to offer up Alex Rios for Tim Lincecum. Had he made that trade he would look like a genious. You can’t deny how good Tim’s season has been and how dissapointing Rios has been… though I do believe he can perform better and since he is here i’m glad it’s a long term deal. By the way, implying that Lind is a better hitter then Bay because of his RISP is like me saying Eckstein should hit clean up (I believe his risp is the best on the team). You can’t go by one stat to prove who is a better hitter. Lind may in fact be better though. I will say this about J.P. I don’t care one way or the other if he is gone this offseason.
Burt is right the team hasn’t had a great deal of success but at the same time I don’t think it’s as far away as most of you guys seem to think and that’s my main point. They’ve had a winning record 2 or 3 straight yrs. (suddenly can’t remember) so obviously there is something their, they just need to add a bit more.
As for the Leafs analogy; the Jays have actually won something of significance during my life time so i’ll always be a fan. I got off the leaf bandwagon a year ago.
Hey, maybe a day off helped Rolen.
hey garry did you end watching the dark knight yet ?
Enigma
It’s all about hitting with risp. Home runs are nice, but if I had a choice between a guy that hit 30 hr’s while only hitting .200 with risp, and a guy that hit 15 hrs, but .290 with risp, I’d take the 15 homer guy every time. The difference in this team hitting .235 with risp and 280 with risp, is probably 10 wins and 2nd place.
Our problem as a team is we’re loaded up with a bunch of nice hitters who don’t hit with risp. That’s why were in 4th place.
The guy that is disappointing me the most is Rolen, who has a reputation for clutch hitting; but not this year-he’s dismal.
A winning record is only 1 game over .500. In this division that will likely asure us of 4th or 5th place each year. Personally, I want to see us win-I’m not happy just truging along at .500 or 5 games above .500.
I’ll give you the RISP arguement, it’s a good point. I’d like to see how good/bad the RISP stat has been in previous years for these guys though before I can say that they suck and should be gone.
Imo, the jays have yet to finish below 3rd in J.P.’s tenure. It’ll likely happen this year but to say it’s going to happen each year is pushing it.
THIS GAME IS B-U-L-L-S-H-I-T-WHAT THE HELL HAPPEND.
Enigma no but I was only kidding if you want to talk about it go ahead,I’ll forget what you said by tomorow anyways,Thats one of the nice things about getting old you forget a lot so if you see somebody you havent seen for awhile you can now make a new freind because you forget who he was, lol.
Here are the culprits:
Matt Stairs: .191risp/.097risp-2 outs
GZaun: .219risp/.233risp-2 outs
Lyle Overbay: .221/risp/.171risp-2 outs
Kevin Mench:.158risp/.167risp-2 outs
Brad Wilkerson: .212risp/.184risp-2 outs
Rod Barajas: .267risp/.103risp-2outs
Scott Rolen: .195risp/.212risp-2 outs
Alex Rios:.245risp/.156risp-2 outs
That was pathetic
Never watched the game on the tube after they tied it I knew what the outcome would be, This team just plain sucks,I checked on game day to see the results.
Now you all know why no one tried to trade for Blow J.HE IS NOT A GOOD CLOSER most of the time he just barely gets the job done,He is not fun to watch.
Garry-I like the nickname-Blow J. lol I don’t think JP even tried to trade him. In fact I’d bet he took calls on him and said he wasn’t available; JP likes this team-remember…….
We’re committed to paying Blow J 10 mill per year for 2009 and 2010.
Most of the time, winning just does not happen. It is a process and a culture that has to be developed. (Think about the Detroit Red Wings.) That is why I do not think that we are a couple of players away from being a contender. What happened on the field last night was not the fault of the few, but the many. A team loss. Like the Jays in the 80s, we need to start with young talent (Lind, Snider, Cooper, Diaz Arcenebia, McGowan, etc.), trade to get more, then let the team learn to win. It worked for us in the past, it is working for the Rays, and it can work for us again. Blaming Blow J is fine, but he is only part of the problem. After a 6-0 lead, there should have been no need to bring him into the game period.
You can’t blame the offence last night but you can blame the pitchen,All in all you can’t blame the pitchers in genral just Marcum and Blow J. for last night only,We have had great pitchen all year but no offence and nothing is going to change next year unless JP gets off his *** and makes some drastik changes this winter,Maybe some of the minor league players will be ready to come up and play a role next year,let us hope so,Also I have been thinking maybe it’s a good thing that JP has not brought up Snider Cooper Dias and Arcenebia yet The longer they play in the minors the better they will be.As for this year all is lost we dont stand a chance to make the playoffs for the 15th straight year how sad is that maybe we can beat the Leafs record of 40 years lol.I guess if JP stays on we could get bthat done.
AS long as Rogers owns the team we may never make the playoffs he knows nothing about baseball all he cares about is the bottom line are we making money, we are then let’s leave things the way they are good job Godfrey *** kisser give yourself and JP a raise and screw the fans let’s make money.
Burt if you’re going to bring hockey into this then i’ll bring up Tampa. They won the cup a few seasons ago and fell into last place this past season, how do you explain that ? Now with the additions they have made (Stamkos, Malone etc.) I wouldn’t be surprised if they can finish in the top 6th in the conference. If you want a baseball example explain the Tigers ? They add a great talent in Miguel Cabrera and are worse than last year. Point being in some cases it doesn’t take much to change the team around. Yes it’s easier to make the playoffs in hockey but if you look at it the Jays are a mediocre team with guys who aren’t hitting well and are only 7.5 games behind a playoff spot considering the circumstances I think that’s pretty good. If they can get decent offense next year I believe this team can be a wild card threat.
One more point, If J.P. was trying to save his job that badly he would’ve pulled the trigger on the Jason Bay deal. It’s true that he wanted to be a buyer instead of a seller, but the fact that he didn’t give up Marcum and Snider for Bay should tell you something.
Garry-Money isn’t the issue, organizational culture and plan is. The Toronto Blue Jays have no plan. In case you haven’t noticed both Boston and New York are putting extra emphasis on scouting, player development, signing bonuses and their minor system as a whole.
New York have started a process of dumping the high priced free agents and will continue that process, while at the same time dumping huge resources into player development. Boston just unloaded Manny Ramirez-who would have ever thought they’d do that.
One of the most successful teams, Oakland have now-by most standards, stocked their minor league system to enable them to remain competitive for the next ten-fifteen years. Look where they’re at this year with a $48 million dollar payroll. They keep turning their players over for prospects, once the player is about to hit free agency.
We’re all over the place. We have no set plan nor strategy of building the organization.The only good draft we’ve had since JP became GM is last year. Previous to that JP drafted only from college ranks and kids he felt were safe picks.
He really never drafted any or many high ceiling prospects, until Snider. In the old days of Gillick, that’s all we drafted. Of course a number didn’t make it, because with high reward also comes high risk, but the ones who did were special. Now, all we have is a nice bunch of kids-with some exceptions, coming up that could be journeyman players.
That’s the reason our minor league cupboard is so bare. Once you take Litsch, Diaz, Cecil and Romero out of the AAA team, there’s no reasonable prospects left.
Take Campbell, Arenciba, and Snider from AA and you have the same thing you have in AAA. Single A Dunedin is about the same, although some of the kids from Lansing ( which is where the majority of our real prspects are) are now moving up to Dunedin.
Frankly, although we value some our prospects high, I doubt any of them will make the top 100 prospects this year by Baseball America.
We will not win this division we’re in without a real strong committment to our minor league system and scouting groups. We need to build from the bottom up-like Oakland are doing, and restock our minor league teams with high ceiling prospects. Once these kids make it up here, and we need one or two extra pieces to get over the hump-then fine sign a free agent. But look who we’re signed in the last two years:
Frank Thomas,Matt Stairs, Shannon Stewart, Kevin Mench,Royce Clayton,Jason Phillips, Sal Fasano, Howie Clark,Ray Olmedo,Tomokazo Okha, Victor Zamrano,Armando Benitez and others whihcin aggregate probably cost us $0 million. Imagine if that same $40 million had been invested in higher signing bonuses for A+ prospects.
Enigma-that whole Jason Bay conversation never happened-JP lied about it.
The facts are the Jason Bay deal was a 3 way deal. Those deals take time and that deal had already been done by the time JP supposedly made the call. ITs pure BS and never happened.
Enigma, The best we can hope for next year is 4th place and if Baltimore picks up we’re looking at last place.
If we wanted to contend next year we should have traded Burnett, Ryan, Mench, Zaun, Barajas, Overbay, Tallet, Rolen, Wilkerson and Stewart for high grade prospects, brought them up and play them.
You woudn’t get high grade prospects for most of those guys though. I know Joe Torre was interviewed about the addition of Manny and he said “it all happened so fast” it does generally take time though so I understand what you’re saying. Anyway, i think we’ll have to agree to disagree about how J.P. has put this team together. You seem to think that they are destined for 4th place for a while, but I think with a couple of additions they can be in the playoffs next year.
The jays are better of to keep the garbage pickups until the season is over and get draft picks when they sign with another team,I’t dosn’t matter where your picks are the more picks you have the better chance you have to get lucky.
Enigma.
If we want to make the playoffs next year we need a good right fielder with a 280 AVG and at least 15 HR a year a DH with power at least 35 HR a year and a short stop with a 280 avg and 15 HR a year,They must trade Rolen and get a good third baseman if they do all that then we have a chance.
The way Hinske is playing he can be the third baseman,he will be a free agent next year and he ows the Jays.
I just agree with Enigma…Gsumner you are letting your hatred for JP influence what you think about this team…I don’t know why BUT THEY ARE NOT GONNA BE A 4TH PLACE TEAM FOR THE NEXT 5 YEARS. yes they might be this year and maybe the next, but we are only 2 clutch bats out of it.
You are the stats guy for us…so tell us how many 1 run games have the lost so far this season and how many 1 run games have we won
Show us Rolen’s RISP not including this year (or maybe just his RISP for his last full season).
“If we wanted to contend next year we should have traded Burnett, Ryan, Mench, Zaun, Barajas, Overbay, Tallet, Rolen, Wilkerson and Stewart for high grade prospects, brought them up and play them.”
Gsumner: Either than Burnett and Ryan, I’m not sure any of those players would net “high grade prospects”. Most of those players are back-ups or emergency fillers on a playoff team. With Rolen’s subpar season and injury history, too, I doubt anyone would have taken his contract. Some GM’s are probably skeptical of Ryan, too, considering he’s not far removed from Tommy John surgery. And from what I’ve read, teams were scared to pick up Burnett because if he bombs or gets injured in the next few months, he can always pick up his player option.
There are many reasons to criticize JP, but I don’t think his inaction at the trade deadline should be included. Most of the players you mentioned are at low-level points in their career and wouldn’t have garnered much in the way of return, especially in terms of good prospects. Hopefully they bounce back next year to help the Jays or get more interest trade-wise. Most of them (Eckstein, Zaun, Stewart, Mench, Wilkerson) will simply be let go at the end of the year or even in September and they’ll fill another team’s roster (possibly even at AAA) in 2009.
I’d like to see those RISP stats too from previous years. It just seems like too many guys on this team are underperforming and if they can get a year that’s reasonably expected out of Rios and Wells the outfield problem that Garry mentioned is solved. Shortstop can be solved by going after a second baseman instead and moving Hill (health pending) to short. The third base problem I think will have to solve itself. That’s something that J.P. may end up regretting if Rolen can’t perform the way he should. I think the thing to worry about is catcher. Do they want to put a lot of faith in a couple of prospects + Barajas ? They’ll need someone to replace Burnett too but their are plenty of “.500” pitchers available though I do think Burnett is better than that label.
Harry, I would very much appreciate it if you stop making assumptions about what I’m thinking. How in the hell do you know whether I hate JP or not? I just don’t think he’s doing a quality job and as a result I think he should be fired. End of story.
What you guys haven’t quite accepted or acknowledged is JP has now been here 7 years and the fact is we’re in no better a position now than when he arrived. Our record in year 2000 was 83-79 and we finished in 3rd place. 8 years later and where are we-struggling to maintain 4th place.
We’ve been 3rd or worse every one of the years he’s been here-except one. That doesn’t get us into the playoffs.
The grand plan he laid out for re-building the minors has fallen short, as a result of his poor drafting (other than last year) and poor implementation of scouting.
Having a good draft once in 7 years doesn’t quite cut it in this league. All he has proven in the last two years, is he knows how to sign old has beens that no one else wants.
You don’t compete with the Sox, the Angels and Yanks just because you think we’re going to be better as you suggest. We’re a lot more than just two bats away from seriously competing with those guys.
Remember Harry, it’s about winning, not just fielding a team.
Hem
“Most of those players are back-ups or emergency fillers on a playoff team.” I agree 100% with that statement-so why bring them here in the first place and why hang onto them-that’s my point.
Frankly, I was trying to be kind to everyone in that list other than Ryan, Burnett, Overbay and Tallet-I should have said what I meant and that is dump the others, for b grade low minor prospects. I think we could have gotten 5-6 high quality prospects for Ryan,, Burnett, Overbay and Tallet. If we traded with the right teams and got the right prospects it could have seriously overcame the area we’re the weakest-the infield, other than 2nd base.
But alas, all JP wanted to trade for Raul Ibanez-another 36 year old on his last legs.
I can’t understand why anyone would stand up for JP he has done a lousey job since he took over just this year alone Glaus for Rolen,Sent Thomas down the road witn 10 mil.How about Stewart,Let Johnson go with 750Gs,Took a pitcher away from our Olympic team to help the Americans,Eskstein thats just a few of his mistakes this year only,And has not drafted well,Now all you Morons that think JP is good for the Jays you are what I just said and you deserve the title.
Garry, I really don’t think we have a problem in the outfield with hitting with risp. The career numbers are as follows:
Rios: .286ba/.336obp/.281risp/.230risp-2 outs
Wells:.282ba/.330obp/.280risp/.253risp-2 outs
Lind: .272ba/.310obp/.316risp/.260risp-2 outs
Rios is well below career stats for this year, but Wells is pretty much right on.
Gsumner: You make some interesting points, but I’m still not convinced that there was much of a market for any of those players, even for “B” level prospects. I’m pretty sure if the Jays released Mench, Wilkerson, Stewart, and Zaun outright, a team would probably take a flyer on them — either as a backup or part of a platoon, which is exactly the role they have on the Jays at the moment. But as far as actually trading for them? I doubt it, but then again, I’m no GM!
The trade deadline was pretty quiet, too, as far as dealing “prospects” went. Other than the guy from Milwaukee’s system (who’s name I can’t remember) who was part of the Sabathia trade, no big name prospects were dealt. In general, I think teams are being pretty tight fisted with their prospects this year. Seattle, for example, was bent on having a fire sale, yet the only guy they were able to move was Arthur Rhodes. So, all in all, I’m saying that it seems unlikely the Jays could have received any big name prospects in a market where teams simply aren’t going to deal their prospects for a rent-a-player.
Hem, there were some great prospects traded for both Sabathia and Santana. Oakland also received good prospects in their trades, so there were good prospects traded if the right player was offered.
I would put Ryan and Burnett close to that class and they would have garned good prospects. However, our GM was not focused on trading for prospects, he was focused on trading for Raul Ibanez. So, we’ll never know one way or the other.
What I do know is Milwaukee were looking for bullpen help, both in their closer and left hand relief. Whether they would have done a trade for Ryan and Tallet-we won’t know, because JP didn’t try.
It’s obvious, the only trades JP wanted to do were ones that would help us finish better this year to save his skin-hence the Ibanez trade
Just so you all know in the CFL my riders are 6 and 0.
I thought Blow J. was going to do it again but thank God he got it done,Burnett sets a career high with 13 wins good for him.
Garry
yes, Burnett pitched a good game. BJ doesn’t seem to have the velocity he had before the operation. I guess it’s taking longer than expected to get it back.
Hey, it looks like we’re stretching Wolfe out in AAA to be a starter. He started tonight and threw 59 pitches, went only 3 innings and gave up 3 runs-none earned. 3 errors cost the runs and the reason he only went 3. I think he could be a good starter, certainly nice to have another in the mix.
I agree with you sumner I think it’s a smart move to see how Wolfe can pan out as a starter. At the least it’ll add to the 5th spot competition next year. It looks like Accardo is done for the year. It’s too bad really.
Enigma
I expect if they keep stretching Wolfe out, we’ll see him up here sooner than later. Probably right after they get him to 100 pitches for a couple of outings-assuming he’s still pitching as well as he is now. His era is now 1.04. If he can handle the load, I think he’ll be a fine starter.
The other guy who looks like he’s really came back from last years injury is Davis Romero. He’s been starting in AAA, but yesterday was used in relief because Wolfe only went 3 innings. All Romero did was go 5 innings (70 pitches), no hits, nor runs, no walks and 11 strikeouts, if you can believe it. His era is now 3.54. I liked Romero when he was here, a little guy with a lot of heart and another lefty never hurts.
Accardo has had 3 outings in Dunedin, including one yesterday, so I’m surprised you stated he’s done for the year. I was starting to think he’d be back with us in a week or so. Did something happen?
Now it’s Wilkerson with a sore shoulder-what is it, when all these guys aren’t performing they have sore shoulders? First Rolen and now Wilkerson.
Sorry for the misinformation guys. I misunderstood a comment on Mike Wilner’s blog. Turns out Accardo could be back soon as Sumner stated. I thought it was odd myself when I read it but it was 1:45 in the morning lol.
It looks like Burnett is a changed man, Last night in the dugout he went up to Wilkerson while he was telling his story about the home run he never caught lol and kissed him on the check,now that means you get along with your teamates and he is having fun,I bet he wins 20 games this year then we will pray he stays with Toronto, My thought is JP had better give him a new contract now before it is to late,
Gsumner I agree with you on rebuilding the team but not the pitchen staff keep them in place we have good pitchen now and some good ones in the minors who we will need in the future,With McGowan gone for the year and Da Kid in the minors for who knows for how long we cant afford to trade away pitchen.
Garry
Well, guys that kiss other guys, can tell you a lot of different things, only one of which is he gets along with his teams mates. lol.
I don’t think we have a hope of competing this year. We have TB, NY and Boston in front of us, and all 3 are a lot better than we are. So I’d trade some pitching to get the pieces, I think we need for the future. I think we need a power hitting 1st and 3rd baseman, and a short stop with speed and high OBP as a lead off hitter.
I’d trade Ryan, Burnett, Camp, Richmond and or Carlson to try to partially fill that need with A+ prospects from either AA or AAA. My favorite two guys, as you know is Escobar and Gamel from Milwaukee. I suspect it would take Ryan,Camp and Carlson to complete that trade.
I’d also trade Rolen and Overbay if possible and go all out to sign Tiexera as a free agent over the winter. If all that could be accomplished between now and spring training, we would be competitive next year and probably content in 2010.
My take is Accardo, Downs, League and Janssen between them can handle the late inning relief next year making Ryan expendable.
Tiexera is after a 10 year contract and the Jays can’t afford him not for that long.Idon’t think we can trade Ryan because of his contract to big for what he is.Rolen after claming his shoulder is bothering him just lost all of his trade value.Overbay can be traded so can Camp and Carlson but why Burnett no one wants him because of his contract so we might as well see what he can do and if JP doesn’t up the contract then at least we get two picks for him.
Garry
Personally, I’d give Tiexiera whaever he wants. He is a true 4th hole power hitting first baseman and exactly what we need. If we sign him, and fill the short stop lead off and power 3rd baseman positions, we would be very solid in the infeild when Hill returns. We already have depth in pitching and outfield positions, so if we make thse changes, we could contend for a long time.
So what would everyone offer Texas for Josh Hamilton?
I forgot to mention he will only sigh with a team that contends every year so you know he will nonly be going to the Yankees.Why was Hamilton out of baseball for 3 years and I would give them everyone but Doc. Hill Rios and Lind.
By the way welcome back Hemgold I think lol.
He had a little problem for 3 years butis ok now. How about Ryan, Burnett and RIos?
What was his problem.
He got a bit carried away with his signing bonus and enjoyed spending it on a number of vices.
THANKS.
Garry-this article provides a good explnation of his difficulties.
TAMPA — The doorbell rang at 2 in the morning last October. Mary Holt trudged to the door, looked through the peephole and saw a stranger on her porch. Holt, 75, slowly opened the front door. It was as if she saw a ghost. The boy had lost 40 pounds. He hadn’t slept in four days. His face was ashen. His cheeks were sunken. His eyes were glazed and distant. His body was trembling.
“Hello, granny,” he mumbled.
Josh Hamilton, the former All-American baseball hero of Raleigh, N.C., was a junkie looking for shelter.
Today, seven years after the Tampa Bay Devil Rays made the outfielder the No. 1 overall pick in the June Free Agent Draft, Hamilton is a recovering drug addict looking for one last chance.
He hasn’t played an organized game of baseball since July 10, 2002, when he his shoulder and elbow and drifted into the drug scene to relieve the boredom from being sidelined.
Major League Baseball had him on its suspended list until last week, when he was given permission by Commissioner Bud Selig’s office to participate in baseball activities. The 6-4, 235-pounder says he has been in and out of eight drug rehab centers since 2003 but has been clean since last Oct. 6. The Devil Rays have no idea where it will lead.
That is a story and a half I hope the young feller all the best in the world he sure has a lot of tallent.
Yes, I also wish him well. They interviewed him at the All-Star home run derby and he seems to have it together now. Now he gives talks on drugs to pther young people which is great. An amazing talent.
Well it’s certainly nice to see Stairs hitting again.
yes it is. Man I don’t think any lead is safe against these guys.
Purcey in my opinion will never make a MLB pitcher.
I watched him on gameday and he is brutal.
If they send this loser out for the 5th off goes the tube.
Garry- I will remind you that you used to say that about McGowan. lol, Purcey will be fine, but he will need 5-10 starts to settle in.
Texas stadium on a night like tonight is a homer dome. It’s still 97 and a south east-out of the park wind. The ball travels a lot farther in conditions like that, just hit it well , high and its outta there.
With regards to earlier comments about only being 7.5 games back and being a couple of .280 hitters away from contention, as you know I do not agree with this logic. The reason being is that you are analyzing a STATIC situation. What happens if Tampa continues to improve (as one might expect)? What happens if one of NY or BOSTON manage to shore up with free agents, while restocking their farm system as gsumner suggests? We may very well pick up the players you want, and still find ourselves 7.5 games back next year. What we can be sure of is when you have excellent home-grown talent you will always be competitive. Perhaps it is because I am older, but I saw the Jays build their first winner this way. Every year you knew that they were going to be in the race simply because they had top-notch young talent. Eventually, free agents were judiciously added to the mix, and we became the best in baseball. Some of you did not understand the Red Wings analogy I was using earlier. I am talking about creating a winning organization, where a good product is going to be put on the field (or ice) year in and year out. Look at detroit’s record over the last 10 years. It is number one. Every year their fans know that they can enjoy good hockey during the regular season, plus have hope of winning a championship in the play offs. Whether they manage to win it all is neither here nor there. I couldn’t care less if the Jays win the world series over the next 10 years, as it is a very hard thing to do. However, I do want to watch great baseball players and a team that has a legitimate shot of winning the world series (year in and year out). I want hope. I want excitement. I want to grow with the team and its players. It appears that some of you want to catch lightning in a bottle (pardon the pun). Like Tampa, you want to make a one-time run and win the world-series, then next year start watching golf, when your team finishes near the bottom. For some baseball fans, it is not the destination, but the journey that is important. It is the difference between a one-night stand (empty) versus a marriage (long-term fulfillment). I want to know that I have a good team to root for year in and year out. That is what Beane is giving his fans in Oakland. Every once and a while, they will make it to the playoffs and to the world series. But every year they have the hope of doing this as they have legitimate talent. They don’t need to wait for has-beens to have career years. The talent level is high enough that even if they have decent years they have a contending club on their hands. I want the same things for the Jays.
I’m with Burt but can JP see the big pitcher I dont think so,
After last night I give up on this team they are one of the worst teams I have ever seen and I can’t see them getting any better.
I mean the big pitcure.
I remember being in a suite at the Rogers Centre when Joe Carter hit his home run. We had 8 guys in the suite and had to yell almost as loud as one can yell in order to hear each other, no more than 3-4 feet apart. Skydome used to flash a sound decibal level on the video board and at times it reached 120+ in there. People who understand audio know what I’m talking about.
For me, part of the baseball experience is what happens in the stadium. All sports franchises today spend huge amounts of money trying to improve the fan game experience. What better way of improving the fan experience is there than having 55,000 screaming fans in the dome with the roof closed. It is an energizing experience-it really is. One doesn’t really understand what I mean, unless they have experienced it. I can tell Burt has and feels the same way I do.
Fans in this city, province and country loved supporting this team. We watched them grow in front of our eyes, improve year after year, saw young rookies break the ranks and then deliver the goods and then finally we added those last few guys through free agency and won. We won twice in a row, that doesn’t happen often.
It was an amazing experience, something to be part of that I enjoyed like so many others. At the same as the team improved, fan support improved from 2 million to 3 million to setting a new MLB record of over 4 million fans per year or over 48,000 per game. As fan unfriendly as Skydome was in those years, the fan experience at those games was unbelievable and something to remember.
I want those times again, I want to go to games with 50,000 other fans. I want to win, not just tread water like we have for the last 15 years. The last 7 years are pretty much a write off, I hope the next seven aren’t.