Shooting for six

TORONTO — If the Jays win today to take this series against the Red Sox, Toronto will have cut its deficit in the American League Wild Card race down to six games. That’d be much better than the alternative with a road trip through Tampa Bay and New York on the horizon.

Not a whole heckuva lot going on here today. Some follow up to the Shaun Marcum demotion, though. It was suggested on Mike Wilner’s blog that the trip to Triple-A had possibly had something to do with an attitude adjustment for the pitcher. Blue Jays manager Cito Gaston said that’s simply not the case.

Went to ask pitching coach Brad Arnsberg about the move, and he declined comment. Keep in mind, Arnsberg wasn’t asked for his input when the Jays decided to demote Jesse Litsch to the Minors earlier this year. Just saying…

Today’s lineups:

BOSTON (74-54) TORONTO (66-62)
at 1:07 p.m. ET at the Rogers Centre

Jacoby Ellsbury, RF
Dustin Pedroia, 2B
David Ortiz, DH
Kevin Youkilis, 1B
Jason Bay, LF
Jed Lowrie, 3B
Jason Varitek, C
Alex Cora, SS
Coco Crisp, CF

PITCHING: RHP Daisuke Matsuzaka (15-2, 2.77)

Joe Inglett, 2B
Marco Scutaro, 3B
Alex Rios, RF
Vernon Wells, CF
Adam Lind, LF
Lyle Overbay, 1B
Matt Stairs, DH
Rod Barajas, C
John McDonald, SS

PITCHING: RHP A.J. Burnett (16-9, 4.51)



    It’s looking more and more like Cito does not like Arnsberg. How else does he almost always seem to go to the mound to speak to the pitchers himself and then not get Brad’s input into whether or not they should demote a pitcher. I don’t get it. Brad’s had the staff pitch to their capabilities to the point where they have the best ERA in the majors over the last 2 seasons. Why mess with that ?


    How about Vernon coming through against a tough team in Boston. I guess the Jays aren’t as good with him. He looks like he’s in his groove now and is showing what he can do. If they can get a full season out of him next year the team will be better.

  3. gsjays

    Thanks for your comments from Cito regarding Marcum. I had read Wilner’s comments and knew it was crap, like so much of everything Wilner says. It really is too bad Wilner can’t get over his ego problem so he reports “real baseball reports” instead of “his flavored view” and takes phone calls from people on a normal basis instead of his condescending ritual every time. I don’t think I’ve listened to a sports caster before who feels the need to beat up on people just in order to get through his day.

    The other “story” I read sort of stated JP was trying the same approach with Marcum that succeeded so well with Litsch, meaning sending him down to perfect the 4 seamer to improve velocity. Jessie’s velocity has increased from 88 to as high as 94 mph on this pitch which is actually hard to believe.

    If we’ve sent Marcum down with the same plan as Jessie, I have no problem with that. My real concern here, is we haven’t yet heard the other foot drop from the “player to be named later” in the Bautista trade and the fact Arnsberg refused comment when he was very vocal on why Jessie went down is a real red flag to me.

    What I do not believe is the crap we’re hearing from JP, particulary with Parrish replacing Marcum in the rotation as a good move to help win. Parrish was getting creamed after a couple of starts and I’d expect will continue to get creamed upon his return.

    With JP under pressure to win as many games as possible through September to save his job, I just hope Godfrey and or Mr. Ted Rogers or someone is starting to review JP’s moves, because desperate people do desperate things in desperate times.

    So if there’s an way you can provide better clarification to exactly what they’re doing with Marcum and or which player or players we’re sending to complete the trade, (and I hope it’s not Marcum), I’d appreciate it.



    There is no way Marcum is the player to be named later. Marcum is one of the guys you build around. I think he can be a solid #2 starter or #3. Marcum is going thru some control issues for some reason. Just getting into some bad habits, it happens. I’m not sure about the attitude issue with Marcum. I assume if that was the case, that story would have come out long ago. What happened to McGowan? What injury does he have? Is he supposed to be back this year?

    Wells loves Red Sox pitching. He tears it up when he faces Boston. Why is Eckstein still around if he is watching like us the fans? I assume their is a team out there that could use him. If I was the Jays I would trade him and get something in return. Not that you would get much for him anyway.

  5. gsjays

    With JP under the gun-who know’s what he’d do. I love Marcum-he’s a bulldog and will soon become our number 2 starter. I don’t buy the control issue at all, nor do I buy the attitute issue. It could be, they want Marcum to pick up the 4 seamer which is what’s been so successful with Litsch-time will tell. Have you ever seen a pitcher go with a 4 seamer and increase his velocity by 6 mph like Litsch? It is amazing to me.

    McGowan had a frayed muscle in his shoulder-I think it is a labrium-or something like that, and he went under a knife. I expect it will take until May next year to be right, but we shall see.

    Yes, Wells has had a good series-it’s about time. lol Hey we’d gladly trade Eckstein for Lowrie-do you want to do that deal? lol. I think they’ve tried to trade him, but no takers.

  6. gsjays

    A homer to Coco Crisp-what are we seeing today, two starter trying to lose. lol

    Bosox, so what is it with DK, he doesn’t have the velocity he had last year?


    Gsumer The rice over here must be low grade Dice-k needs vitamins lol.
    Marcum may be hurt,his shoulder may be giving him problems,We will see if he pitches in the minors or just rests down there,this way they don’t have to put him on the DL.for 15 days and maybe bring him up in a few days.
    Indy where are you your beau bosox is here.


    Way to go League why put this goof in when the game is on the line he melts down every time,for a moment there I thought we had a chance at the wild card now I’m sure the season is done and I hope JP is to.

  9. gsjays

    The wild card has been out of reach for quite some time. Jason Bay won that game for Boston, great catch and gave them momentum. The home run off of League wasn’t a surprise as a result. Now, you know why I liked Jed Lowrie so much.
    You can’t win many games when the starter gives up 5 runs, but as a starter you can’t be perfect every time either.

  10. inception

    It was good to see VW finally put a few good at-bats together. It must be awful to know that you are not producing but earning $126, 000, 000.00 Of course, there are probably some athletes who have no conscience with respect to living up to a contract, but VW does not give me that impression. For his sake, I hope that he starts to put it together on a concistent basis over the remainder of his contract/career.


    Burt my thoughts on wells are,The contract was to big for the Jays,as far as wells goes If he stays sound for a year he will put up some big numbers,since we are stuck with him we will have to hope he has a few good years 7 I hope,If I was JP I would sign Delgado to hit behind him it worked before it will work again and he will be a free agent at the end of the year.


    “Way to go League why put this goof in when the game is on the line he melts down every time”

    Yeah you’re right, not scored upon in the last 14 2/3 innings, most of which were high leverage innings, not to mention the dirty splitter he threw to Inge to get the strikeout in Detroit. A guy can’t throw one bad pitch? Lowrie is also one of the hottest hitters in the second half. You need to stop talking to gsumner, his moronic thoughts are getting to you.



  14. gsjays

    I see you finally got your head out of that dark little hole in between the cheeks you sit on and made a post. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like you washed your eyes, so you’re still not seeing the facts. You said “Lowrie is also one of the hottest hitters in the second half.

    The fact is Lowrie’s hit .222 in July and .329 in August. That is not one of the hottest hitters in the second half, moron.

    Instead of focusing on making your post per month here an insult to Garry and everyone else, you might find it’s more productive to post something of worth.

    Funny, how you show up every time someone attacks JP-is that just a coincidence?

  15. hemgold

    I have to agree that you can’t pin this loss on League — he’s pitched very well recently. I’m not trying to attack anyone by saying that — just my opinion!

    I doubt Marcum is the “player to be named later”. Of course I don’t know for sure, but it would really, really surprise me. I think it will be somebody in AAA who once was thought highly of (like Adams or Thigpen) but has fallen out of favour.

    Delgado would be an interesting option for DH next year, as long as he’s relatively cheap and only for a year. He’s turned things around a bit lately, but he’s definitely not the same player that he used to be. Chances are though, if JP’s around again next year, that the Jays will end up signing Ibanez. He is, after all, a player that JP’s “liked for quite some time”!


    That’s been a problem for a while, ever since they changed the blog. I agree with you about League he’s been really good lately so it’s hard to fault him for the loss. How come no one’s bringing up the fact that Stairs was safe… least it looked like it to me. Even on the broadcast no one really mentioned it which I found odd. It was a fun game to watch despite the loss.
    I hate to break it to some of you guys but I doubt that J.P. is stupid enough to give up Marcum for Bautista. Give him a little credit. If he’s trying to keep his job by pulling a move like that then i’d fire him on the spot if I were Godfrey. It’s hard to believe that he wouldn’t give up Marcum for Bay but would do it for Bautista. I wouldn’t do either one let alone for Bautista.
    how was the game live ? the atmosphere seemed incredible.

  17. cp_fan


    My understanding is that there is an option year available on Delgado. That makes him unlikely to be a free agent. Did I hear wrong? And, yes, his bat (or another like it) would be nice in the Jay’s lineup.


    League hasn’t blown up in a while. Your comment about him is totally uncalled for (IMO). My thought was “It had to happen sooner or later, at least it was a solo blast.”


  18. hemgold

    Steve: Is it a club or player option? If it’s a club option, I’m pretty sure the Mets are going to let Delgado walk. For some reason or the other, he and the Mets’ faithful haven’t always seen eye-to-eye and I think the organization isn’t happy with the production he’s giving for the salary he’s earning.


    According to what i’ve read there is a club option and a mutual one. Should the Mets decline the club option both them and Delgado would have to decide if they’d like him to come back at 12 million.

  20. gsjays

    Carlos Delgado Contract
    4 years/$52M (2005-08), plus 2009 option

    acquired 11/05 in trade from Florida (as part of deal, Marlins paid Mets $7M – $1M in 2006, $2M in 2007, $4M in 2008)
    05:$4M, 06:$13.5M, 07:$14.5M, 08:$16M, 09:$16M option ($4M buyout)
    2009 option may vest based on MVP voting rank
    if 2009 option does not vest, club has $12M mutual option ($4M buyout)
    MVP award bonus ($50,000 for finishing 2nd to Bonds in MVP vote)


    According to the fan Robinzen Diaz is heading to Arizone to complete the trade for Bautista. I don’t like that move.


    Since Imade that comment on league many guys posted on this blog,I will now take my comment back it was in the heat of the moment and I was wrong. Stairs was safe the way I saw it, and the strike zone was terrible but both pitchers had to put up with it.

  23. welikeroywelikeroy

    Stairs was safe, Cookie Crisp’s homerun just cleared the fence. Rios’ hit in the bottom of the 9th barely missed clearing the fence (great play by Bay). A tough game to take.

    But here is a positive. B.J. Ryan came on in the 10th and got out Pedroia, Ortiz and Youkilus in quick and effective fashion. He has been shakey to say the least this year, but I was very impressed by his performance on Sunday.

  24. gsjays

    I’m with you, what a dumb move it is to give them Diaz for Bautista. I knew that deal was going to really cost us, because JP is getting desperate to save his sorry ***.

    With Rolen coming back soon-all we ended up getting is another utility guy that hits like **** with risp. JP will justify this to Godfrey and others as Diaz not hitting up to normal, which is true, because he’s coming back from an injury, but is a .320 career hitter in the minors except after he got injured this year.

    Diaz and Arrencibia were our catchers of the future-giving one of them up for this waste of space utility guy is stupidity. If JP needed to send them a catcher send them Thigpen or Jeroloman-who can’t hit his way out of a wet paper bag.
    JP loves Jerolman who’s hitting .228 because he gets a lot of walks resulting in a high OBP. The problem is walks don’t score runs as we saw earlier this year, hits score runs, someone should tell Jp that.

    Jerolman has been promoted over Arencibia and Diaz, and has hit a grand total of 6 hrs, and driven in 35 runs all year (not surprising with a .105ba with risp), BUT got 57 walks.
    Jerolman is a player JP loves, who drools over all those walks-go figure that one out and you’ll understand why this team is so screwed up and if JP keeps running it will not be fixed any time soon.

    If we were going to trade away a top prospect then we should have traded for someone like Gamel from Milwaukee AA who could become a real power 3rd baseman that also hits for high average and RISP. Bautista will never be anything more than a hitter that pops a few hr’s, hits for low average and low risp.

    If this is how we’re going to deal our top prospects, why spend the money on the minor league system. Just hang around and continue to pick up lossers off the waiver wire. I expect the next one will be Raul Ibanez-another loser-we’ll probably give Seattle, Arencibia for him and resign Zaun and Barajas for 5 mill per year.

    Get used to 4th or 5th place guys, with this level of incompetent management we have absolutely no chance of ever seriously competing in the AL East.

  25. hemgold

    Hadn’t there been talk about converting Diaz into an infielder? I could be wrong on this, but I think there were some worries that his body couldn’t handle the catcher’s role.

    Or am I completely making this up?

    Thanks for the triple-spacing tip!!

  26. gsjays

    Yes, there were discussions about turning Diaz into an infielder. I think that experiment stopped when they realized Zaun was becoming old quickly. Diaz is 6′ and 225 pounds, so I don’t understand anyone having concerns about his body not being able to handle anything.

    Of course, I expect a continually stream of excuses and demonization of Diaz out of the Jays office now-lol.

  27. hemgold

    I’m not sure that it is Diaz’s size that is the problem, but maybe his knees/back/whatever just weren’t dealing well with the rigors of catching everyday. Some guys fit the mold of a catcher physically, but they just can’t handle it for whatever reason.

    I only bring this up because it could be the reason why he was traded for a utility infielder type (Bautista). Maybe Diaz was projecting more and more as a singles-hitting infielder without much power, which really isn’t much of a prize? I dunno – I’m just guessing because I’m a little surprised that it turned out to be Diaz on the move.

  28. gsjays

    True Diaz didn’t hit for lots of power, he’s more of a contact hitter, who seldom strikes out-BUT he’s also a good clutch hitter, a tremendus athlete and has hit well with risp throughout his career. As you can appreciate, with the awards he’s recenty won, I’m not the only one who liked him.

    07/11/2007 – EAS Mid-Season All-Star
    07/08/2007 – Futures Game Selection
    08/28/2006 – FSL Post-Season All-Star
    06/17/2006 – FSL Mid-Season All-Star
    09/05/2005 – FSL Post-Season All-Star
    06/18/2005 – FSL Mid-Season All-Star
    09/01/2004 – SAL Post-Season All-Star

  29. hemgold

    The awards are nice, but they don’t always tell the whole story. Look at these awards:

    2002: NY Penn State League All-Star

    2003: Mid-Season All-Star Florida State League

    2004: Futures Games Selection

    2004: Listed as #16 of 20 on Baseball America’s Year End List of Top Prospects

    Who is this player? Russ Adams.

    I’m as surprised as you are by the decision to give up on Diaz, but I’m just wondering if there’s more to it then we know.

  30. inception

    JP must go. It is as simple as that. After this long in the league, we know from statistics that Bautista has absolutely no upside worth speaking of. Diaz, on the other hand, showed glimpes of excellence in the minors. At least he has potential. Whether that potential can be realized in the majors, pittsburgh will find out.

    The truth is, we really have no one at triple-A that is ready. Any young talent we may have is at class A, several years away. This team needs to move some of its assets from the MAJOR league team to pave the way for the 2011/2012 team. Not shore up a useless lineup that cannot win the east or contend for the wild card.

    This just proves that JP has NO plan save for trying to hold on to his job at, apparently, any cost. I am really frustrated with the lousy way this team is managed from the top.


    yeah, i was wrong about Lowrie, he’s been hot in August, who cares about July. Honestly, who cares about losing Diaz, he’s blocked by Arencibia who mashes and is clearly the #1 of the future, and by Jeroloman, and Barajas is back next year. In 2010 I assume you’ll see Arencibia as the starter and Jeroloman as the backup. In 2007, Jeroloman hit .259 with a .420! OBP. Yeah, he only slugged .338, but I assume he’s not gonna be the full time guy. Before his promotion to AAA, he hit .270/.396/.416 at New Hampshire. He has struggled since the promotion, but it’s 57! at bats. He has a track record as a high on base guy, and really, the primary objective of a baseball player is to not get out. Ok, he won’t hit 30 home runs and be a middle of the order guy, but how many backup catchers do that. So its either Arencibia/Diaz or Arencibia/Jeroloman. Jeroloman will give a better OBP, doesn’t have power, but neither does Diaz. Diaz is Vlad Guererro without the power. Also, Jeroloman is a far, far better defender which means alot. For a backup, which is all Diaz would have been, Jeroloman is a far better option. I’m feeling pretty good about the catching tandem for the future. You should too. I’m a little perplexed about the Bautista/Diaz swap, but I don’t think losing Diaz is something to fret over. No one knows how Bautista fits in yet.. Who knows about Rolen. He is also only 27. This team has bigger issues (power hitting DH, SS, replace A.J.), so I’m not going to get worked up over a guy who most likely play a huge role. Also don’t use batting average over the course of 57 at-bats as a way of knocking a prospect. You’re in Joe Morgan territory with that.


    “Any young talent we may have is at class A, several years away.

    Yeah, Cecil, Snider, Arencibia, Jeroloman, Mills, and Campbell, who are either in AA or AAA are terrible, and will never help this team in the next couple years.

    JP also did a horrendous job of putting this pitching staff together, which is only the best in baseball. Funny that no one on this board ever mentions that.

    Diaz was never going to be any more than a backup catcher or utility guy. They didn’t give up much for Bautista, whose role is undefined at this point, so save judgement for when it is. He wasn’t brought in to be a middle of the order, run producing guy.


    plus263 JP is a waste of skin,why do you like him so much are you related to him????

    All the minor league players plus363 is talking about will fit right into the five year plan or was it the six year plan or maybe the seven year plan or was it 8 or 9 I have lost tract,

    JP must go if the Jays want to be a contender,They got rid of Gibbons and it paid of now get rid of JP and bring in a GM with some brains.

    If anyone wants to stand up for JP name 25 good moves since he has been the Jays GM and I’ll bet no one can.

  34. lndigo

    Enigma ,
    The game was exciting, you could feel the electricity of the crowd all around . I love close games where the win is a hard fought one, too bad it wasn’t in the Jays favour. As for Stairs , the ball beat him to the plate but he definitely touched homeplate before the tag was applied .

    I have a question …..Have any of you seen Diaz or any A, AA or AAA game ? The players stats may look good but they are only numbers . Dice-K ‘s “numbers” look good but he isn’t that great a pitcher . He did go longer in yesterday’s game and it was probably one of his better outings . Maybe the coaches etc saw something, or didn’t see something in Diaz that made him expendable …..just a thought .



    I thought Stairs was safe at home. As you said the ball beat him to home plate. We all know 99% of the time the runner will be called out. It is something that drives me nuts!! I was surprised too see Boston go into Toronto and win 2 out 3. The Blue Jays seem to own the Red Sox. It has been going on for about 3 or 4 years now. If the Jays played the Red Sox and Yankees all season, they would win 120 games, lol. The Rays have had the Jays number so far this year. At least Halladay will be on the hill for 1 of the 3 games. Also the Jays are hitting much better now. I can’t even remember the last time the Rays lost a series at home. It has been a while. They’re one of the best home teams in all of baseball. The Rays are having a magical season and I think it is great for baseball. Perhaps the Rays could be the Marlins of 2003. The Marlins came out of nowhere to win it all that year. Time will tell of course.

    Dice-K’s numbers sure look good on paper but we all know the game is played on dirt/grass/artifical turf, lol. If the Red Sox make the playoffs I would rather have Paul Byrd start before Dice-K. Dice-K drives me nuts!!! LOL!! Of course a big IF……….

  36. hemgold

    Indigo: I tend to agree with your hunch – there must be a reason Diaz fell hard in the depth chart. But who knows? Maybe he’ll pull it all back together with the Pirates next year…..

  37. welikeroywelikeroy

    Dice-K stills command the plate very well, almost better than anyone in the league, but I’ve noticed, and Rance Mulliniks also touched on this, a significant drop in his velocity. At least in the last couple of years, and when I saw him pitch in the World Baseball Classic, where he was amazing.

    His record is decieving because the Red Sox hitters have bailed him out a number of times this season. He is becoming a command pitcher without very overpowering stuff. The Red Sox version of Mussina, Glavine or Maddux, but at a much younger age. Thats how I see him.


    I’m with you about J.P. He has put together the best staff in all of baseball. Many people here forget that. I actually mentioned a post or 2 back that in the last 2 seasons the best ERA in the majors belongs to the Blue Jays. That is why I continue to believe that they are not as far away as people here seem to think. It’s harder to find good pitching which the jays have then it is to find good hitting. Janssen, Marcum, Downs, Ryan, Burnett, Accardo, Purcey, League, Litsch etc were all brought in or drafted by J.P.
    Halladay is signed untill 2010 with a great contract.

    Overbay, Rios and Hill are all making a fair amount. He also drafted Lind who’ll have a full time job next year and should improve the offense right from the start. He’s put the team in a position where they can afford to spend money this offseason on a big free agent or 2. All things that for the most part people refuse to give him credit for. Obviously the job he’s done hasn’t been perfect, but i’ve said this before I don’t think this team is far away.


    “plus263 JP is a waste of skin,why do you like him so much are you related to him????”

    ok half brain, there is a difference between liking someone and being reasonable about their track record. Stop drinking the Richard Griffin/Bob McCown kool-aid, and come off the 5 year plan crap. That garbage is such a non-story because there was never anything like that said.

    Why do you think that being a GM is a perfect science and that mistakes are never going to be made? Hindsight is a tremendous thing, if you could actually go back and fix your mistakes.

    The simple truth is that JP has made few bad trades. Now go ahead and say Rolen/Glaus and Diaz/Bautista, and you’ll be wrong. Diaz/Bautista won’t be known for a few years, and with all the information that JP had at the time, the Rolen/Glaus deal was a win for the Jays.

    He has made mistakes in the draft, but name a GM who hasn’t. He also has given us the players I mentioned earlier. The Jays system may be ranked towards the bottom, but who honestly knows how young prospects will pan out. The Jays also do not go over slot when signing picks which hurts them in the draft. The yanks and sox continuously do this, so JP is at a disadvantage there. The draft is a crapshoot.

    Its also definitely JPs fault that most of the hitters are having below average years, and its clearly his fault that Aaron Hill got concussed, or Vernon Wells missed two months, or Casey Janssen and Accardo missed the entire year, and 4 1/2 months respectively. Every team has injuries I know, but the Jays have lost more key players for longer periods of time I’ll give you the Wilkerson/Mench argument, but what is the alternative? Buck Coats, Wayne Lydon, Russ Adams. Please. This team isn’t failing because of Wilk and Mench. If this team was having an average offensive year, they would be in the thick of it. If you can’t understand that, then arguing with you is hopeless.

    Here’s your 25. If you need me to explain, i’d be more than happy to.

    rios contract
    hill contract
    retaining halladay for less than market value
    kielty for lilly
    trading for Hinske

  40. welikeroywelikeroy

    Thanks enigma, nice to know some people are reading it.

    I agree with you on J.P. as well, I don’t want to castrate the guy for this team not suceeding. He has put some nice pieces together, he has had to deal with injuries without sufficent depth on our roster and we are in a very tough division. He has done some good things and some not so good things with this team. I’d give him an average rating.

    I feel the pain of Jays fans, being one, that we are so hungery for a playoff spot we are willing to assemble like a pack of wolves and prey on anything we can find. Its a tough situation for J.P., and the only thing that can solve it is getting the playoffs.

  41. gsjays

    For anyone trying to defend JP, you’re all forgetting the most important thing-a GM’s record is based on performance results.

    The year before JP came to the Jays some 7-8 years ago, we ended up 4 games over .500 and 3rd place. Since then, we’ve finished higher than 3rd place only once, currently sit in 4th place at 67-63, and will not make the playoffs for the 15th straight year.

    We have had 1 good draft in those years, with a reasonable one this year, and last year our minor league system was rated one of the poorest in baseball.

    Through the generosity of our owner and probably good begging by Paul Godfrey, the salary budget has increased 3 fold and any salary flexibility we got, for the most part been consistently pissed down the river by bad JP decisions. We committed to some horrific contracts with Wells, Thomas, Hinske, Burnett, Eckstein, Ryan, Rolen, Koskie, and others that will take a total of 7 years to get out of. Imagine, in 1 year-we start paying Vernon Wells 23 million per year, does anyone here think that’s good value and a smart contract?

    Does anyone wonder why Roy Halliday wants out? Remember Roy took a contract below what he could have got in order to give the Jays the flexibility to add other talent and win. If you think I’m pissed off with JP, imagine how Roy Halliday feels seeing money continually thrown in the ditch by JP’s stupidity. When you think about it remember Halliday will make 9-10 million per year LESS than Wells in one years time.

    Fans always fall in love with players and ( I guess here ) GM’s and over value their truth worth-ask any Maple Leaf fan. But in the end, whether we think a guy is good, bad or indifferent, remember one thing folks, it’s about winning and whether we love a guy or not, we’re in 4th place and not getting out of it any time soon.

    Frankly, if we don’t make some changes and Bautista is not a good start, we could finish last next year. Why in hell add a 3rd (and if you include Macdonald) 4th utility guy, while at the same time giving up a A grade prospect to do it?

    On the other hand, maybe it would be good to finish last. Then maybe someone in this orgainization would open their eyes and realize how screwed up this franchise is and make the changes to improve and hopefully, sometime in the next 15 years, win.

  42. lndigo

    Sox took 2 out of 3 because the homeplate ump took Stair’s run away, otherwise Sunday’s game would have been a 6-5 Jay’s win . Its the “luck” of the Jays . There would have been no extra innings , no 6th run for Boston and the game would have finished in decent time inspite of Dice-K pitching…….lol…..Good luck with the Yanks tonight and even better luck for the Jays … TB is in the zone . Take care all and have a great day

  43. lndigo

    VW doesn’t start to make 23 mil until the yr 2011 . This yr he gets .5 mil, 2009 1.5, 2010 12.5 , 2011 is 23 mil and its the only yr he gets that amount . The next yrs the amount goes down . I admit not by much but it works out to 18 mil a yr . Teams defer money like that to players for several reasons . I still don’t think VW’s contract was out of line when you consider he was coming off winning another gold glove , his age and taking into consideration what other gold glove fielders were getting . Yes he has had a couple injury yrs but Jay’s can’t look into the future anymore than any other team . VW has the talent and now he is healthy , I think he will prove himself .



    I would say zero chance of Well’s opting out of his contract. Wayyyyy toooo much money on the table. I also think the Wells contract was another classic case of a g.m./team bidding against themselves. For some reason the Jays were afraid to lose him. I don’t think Wells is a franchise player, obviously J.P. and the ownership did.



    How can you say Dice-K still commands home plate well. He is constantly walking people and has a high pitch count after 5 or 6 innings every start. I was hoping for Dice-K to have a breakout season. On paper it looks good but we all know the game isn’t on paper. As of right now Dice-K isn’t anymore than a #3 starter. He has #1 type stuff but nibbles too much. Sunday he threw strikes but the Jays hitters were obviously ready. Dice-K’s numbers are better than Lester but I’ll take Lester over him any day of the week.

    Let’s go Halladay!!! I love watching him pitch. He is the best in the game!! He is one of the few pitchers I would give a 5 year deal too. He has such great mechanics/great delivery. I love his attitude as well. What he starts he wants to finish. That isn’t the case with most pitchers today. It’s all about the mind-set!!! Halladay will pitch into his late 30’s and probably a little more.

  46. lndigo

    Doc makes 15.75 mil the final year of his contract which happens to be 2010. Unless Doc resigns and that is anybodies guess , he will not even be a Jay in 2011 .

    I can’t wait to see what Texiera gets when he becomes a free agent after this year. Rumours have him demanding A-Rod type money . The same goes for Sabathia , he is a good pitcher but I think he is an injury waiting to happen. The NL seems to agree with him and he has proven himself a decent hitter. From everything I have read he would like to go to the west coast , it will be interesting to see where he ends up

  47. lndigo

    I agree Halladay will be around for awhile and I hope as a Bluejay . He is among the elite in pitchers , always prepared . I think if they would let him , he would be happy to pitch every game…….lol….

    We will have to disagree over VW”s contract , now he better prove me right ……lol…..


    plus, why half brain not nice keep the name calling to yourself,and half of the players you named are not good deals,HE SAID Inglet was no good now he says oh I like this guy we have liked him for a long time now that he is performing,Rolen bad trade shoulder problems for three years,Richmond big screwup helped out the yankee Olympic team and he used to be on the yankee comitte,Overbay not a good deal not enough power for a first baseman,Any GM could have retaind Halliday for that money because he wanted to stay a Jay,Burnett has one good year???,Lilly was not a good pitcher,Kielty did JP not bring him here,Hinske JP gave him a 5 year contract after one good season DUH,Ryan not a great closer not for the money JP gave him,as for minor league players he has not drafted well and as for Lind if it wasent for Cito he would still be in the minors,So don’t tell me JP is a good GM it’s all in your head.

  49. dt005

    For anyone who thinks Diaz is a good prospect your kinda wrong. I mean I can’t predict what the guy will do in the Majors, but he definatly isnt a top flight prospect. There is no place for him on this team as it stands. Diaz could hit the ball pretty well, but mostly singles. As I look at it , a walk is pretty much just as good as a single (unless a runner in scoring position). His career minor league OPB is only .338 not that impressive. His career minor league slugging is .390 even less impressive coming from a catcher. With Arencibia coming next year why is there any reason to keep Diaz around? Arencibia is going to make everyone around here forget this trade even happend, so not much point in saying much more. To me the trade was pretty even, an OK player for another OK player.


    Inglett- who cares what he said, he’s performing, and he picked him up.

    Rolen- traded a problem for a problem. Glaus wouldn’t have held up on the turf, plus he essentially demanded a trade. I’d say JP did pretty well in return. He got excellent reports from the doctors that his shoulder was fine. With the info he had at the time, JP did well on this move. Glaus has more HR power, but Rolen has a better on base throughout his career, and hits more doubles. Remember, before he hit the skids with the shoulder problem, his OPS+ was better than Glaus. There is a tremendous chance that Glaus would’ve hit the DL if he had stayed.

    Richmond- signed out of a tryout camp, and has a chance to be a 5th starter next year. And again, put down the Richard Griffin kool-aid, and get off the Olympic conspiracy theory crap. JP gave this guy a chance at the highest level of his sport. And if you honestly think that JP cares about helping the US win in the Olympics, then your mind is so clouded beyond belief. He has ONE job to do, help the Jays win, not care about how his call-up will affect your delicate Olympic baseball team.

    Overbay- great year in 2006, injury stricken in 2007, performing below average this year which couldn’t be predicted and not JPs fault. He gave up Dave freaking Bush and Zack Jackson for him, so how is this a bad deal. Yeah, a 40 home run first baseman would be nice, but if he was performing at his career averages this year, like most other guys, the team would be fine.

    Halladay- the point is he didn’t screw it up and has the best pitcher in the game signed through 2010 for less than his value.

    Burnett- actually this has been his worst year, and the last two were not bad, just injury stricken. Look at the contracts for pitchers around the League (Carlos Silva), and you can not honestly say that this is a bad deal. He hasn’t been an ace, but I don’t see how this is a bad signing. Again, would you rather have Dave Bush in the rotation?

    Kielty/Lilly- he brought Kielty here because he knew he could get Lilly for him. He had a good year in ’04, bad in ’05, and won 15 games in ’06. He gave up Kielty for that who was nothing more than a platoon player in Oakland. JP has done quite well in deals with the Great Billy Beane. Although, you probably think Beane should be fired too.

    Hinske- acquired a Rookie of the Year for Koch who had one good year in Oakland. Obviously his fat *** didn’t perform after the contract, but how many GMs would not have given that deal?

    Ryan- yeah, he was downright brutal in ’06 after he signed the deal. You know, a WHIP of .85, ERA of 1.37, 38 saves. Yeah, the team got screwed with his TJ surgery, but keep in mind he has only blown 3 saves this year in 27 chances. Would I like to see his contract off the books, and have Downs be the closer? Yes, but at the time of the deal, he did not overpay. Have you seen what top-flight closers command in free agency?

    Minor league players- did I not give you a list of guys that you will most likely see in the next couple years? Again, the draft is a crapshoot, not a perfect science.

    Lind- who honestly knows whether in was Cito’s or JP’s call to bring him up the second time? You don’t know, I don’t know. The point is he drafted him, and he will be a very good player for years to come.

    JP has made mistakes, I am not a JP apologist. I think I should be allowed to point out the positive things he has done, since all you and your buddies do is crap all over him and never mention the good things he has done. He has made bad deals, he has shot his mouth off at the wrong times, but I think he has done enough to see his contract through to the end. If you think a new GM will come in and immediately bring division titles and world series’ just because he isn’t JP, then you are wrong because baseball is the most competitive major sport. 4 teams make the playoffs, this isn’t hockey where more than half the teams get in.


    Denoit up your a-hole not everyone can spell like a couple of jerks on here and no one picks on anybody who missspells words, and if you read all of my post you will see I can spell his name just like yours [JERK]see.


    PLUS no matter what anyone says you will always be a JP a-ss kisser no more post from me to you.


    Ok, thats cool. Nice counter argument. Its been a pleasure winning arguments against a ****** like yourself.

  54. dt005

    “Does anyone wonder why Roy Halliday wants out?”
    I wonder how you have inside information that Roy Halladay wants to leave the Blue Jays? Are you family? or Friends? you seem to have alot of info please explain to the rest of us how you got it! You must have some sort of connection.

  55. inception

    Gsumner is right. This team was just over .500 when JP took over. A thousand games later, it is just under .500 over that (long) stretch. So, no progress, no matter how you slice it. It is this fact that angers some of us, and the fact that there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Tampa has drafted in the top ten all of their history. They have at least 4 minor league players that are being touted as potential “franchaise” players. Add even a couple of them, to what is already the best team in the east, and even the Bosox and Yanks will be hard pressed to win the east. This leads us fighting with everyone else in the American league, including the Bosox and Yanks, for one play-off spot. It is not going to happen. We are not good enough to win, and we are not good enough to win, because JP has employed a failed strategy for 1000 games now. The yanks can afford to throw big bucs at free agents, but that is not all they do. They also pay top dollar for their prospects, so that when they arrive at the major league level, they have the potential of being impact players. Who cares if JP has picked up a few potentially decent players in one or two of his drafts. So has everyone else. In fact, those who rank farm systems rank ours among the worst, overall. I don’t want to be rude, but some of you guys need to see the forest, and stop focusing on the trees. The plan that JP employs has not worked, and will not work. 1000 games should be enough for anyone to see that, even Toronto fans!

  56. hemgold

    I really don’t think it’s a case of people being “JP apologists”. I think a lot of people end up defending JP simply because a lot of fans seem to think he’s done absolutely nothing right since he got the job. And I don’t think that’s the case at all — JP’s made mistakes, but he’s also done some good things. As it’s already been mentioned, he put together an incredible pitching staff. The bullpen’s been lights out and the starting staff has put together some pretty incredible runs. Why doesn’t JP get more credit for this pitching staff? It’s not blind luck that he picked up and drafted guys like Accardo, Downs, Tallet, Litsch, Marcum, and Jannsen. Maybe he’s just better at assessing pitching then hitting?

    I personally think it might be time to change GMs, but I’m not going to agree with people who think JP’s done absolutely nothing right. He definitely needs to learn to reign in his mouth a little bit, but I will give him credit for the good things he’s done with the organization.


    I don’t mean to get on anyone’s bad side here but again, I agree with Plus263. Keep fighting the good fight man lol.

    Roy Halladay has never said he wants out, he simply answered a question honestly by stating the obvious that he’d like the team to be in a better position. I was paraphrasing but the point is basically the same.
    I’d rather that kind of honesty then someone like Sundin (as an example) who’ll give his fans some b.s. about how he thinks the team can compete….give me a break. At least if someone from the Jays says they can I believe them.

    As stated by PLus J.P. has made mistakes. The Frank Thomas contract, I believe is his biggest but in the overall I am happy with the job he has done.

  58. gsjays

    I’m not saying JP hasn’t done anything right, BUT facts are facts. We’re barely over .500, in 4th place and in all the time he’s been here, we’ve only finished higher than 3rd once.

    I could even accept that mediocre performance if I felt we have loads of good A prospects in the system which would improve us-but we don’t. We are now paying for JP’s poor drafts in his first 5-6 years. In addition, in two years we are committed to pay over 100 million in salary to 10 players, so we have no fiscal flexibility for free agents-or at least not quality ones. I also expect we will cut our prospect signing bonus budget to provide some player budget flexibility.

    JP insults his fans, his players, the Canadian National baseball team, potential free agents and lies everytime he opens his mouth. Frankly, to me, he’s become an embarrassment to what used to be a proud franchise. I don’t think we can fire him fast enough.

  59. gsjays

    Don’t get carried away with high OBP by a catcher or I’ll be convinced you’re JP. Walks don’t score runs, as we have first hand experience at this year. It’s nice to have a high OBP as a lead off hitter or 2nd hitter, but what drives those guys in are hitters hitting with risp, our problem with this team for the last couple of years.

    Diaz has always hit for higher average and real well with risp, Jerolman has not. Both are good defensive catchers. I do agree that Arencibia is now higher in the depth chart than Diaz and as a result it might make sense to trade Diaz. I just don’t think trading him for Bautista was a good trade for us. We dont need a 4th utility guy with limited upside.


    Yeah, don’t get carried away with a high OBP. I mean, its only the most important thing for a baseball player to excel at. Diaz was destined to be a backup, he is a singles hitter, he was never going to be a huge run producer. Hitting with RISP is a stat that can fluctuate dramatically year to year, I wouldn’t put much stock in that. JP traded one mediocre player for another, its such a minor event. Argue about the Thomas deal or the Wells contract, but I’m reserving judgement on Wells until he actually gets into year 2 of that deal. Yeah, 23 mil is a hell of a lot too much for anyone, but all signs point to Godfrey for that move.


    Oh, and Jeroloman isn’t a good defender, he is an outstanding defender. I’ll take a beast (Arencibia), and a great defender with a high OBP as my tandem of the furture any day of the week. Why are your panties in a wad over losing Diaz?

  62. gsjays

    Diaz might or might not be a back-up, but you fail to explain something and that is why do we need 4 utility guys? Who do we dump, Scutaro, Macdonald or Inglett-please tell.
    Both Diaz and Jerolman are good defensively-actually Diaz threw out more runners than Jerolman.

    Hey you might be happy having a guy here like Jerolman who can’t hit his *** out of a wet paper bag-just like a whole pile of guys we already have. You might also be happy sitting in 4th place. I’m not.

    If we traded Diaz for a quality prospect in a postion we needed that would be a different issue-but that’s not what we did. If we had packaged him and possibly one or two other guys for Mat Gamel and Escobar from Milwaukee’s AA team giving us a real power potential 3rd baseman and a real short stop, I’d be a happy guy. Those are guys we really could use-not another 2rd rate utility guy like we got-that was stupidity. We gave Diaz away.

  63. inception

    One can trade away potential prospects when one has depth at the position. Diaz’s fall in the depth chart was precipitated by an injury, I believe. Now what happens if Arencibia experiences the same fate? We have Greg Myer’s son, better known as Jeroloman, as our only option. The truth is, we do not know how good any of these players are going to be at the major league level. We do know that Bautista is not good. He has proven that over hundreds of games at the major league level. Why, then, make the trade? It makes no sense, except, perhaps to JP and plus263, one of whom we know for sure is a moron.
    On a different note, many claim that Cito is “the best thing since sliced bread” because he has a winning record. You say that the apparently poor decisions that he makes should be completely overlooked since at the end of the day he wins. Then, when others judge JP by his loosing record you say no. That is not fair. You must not judge him by his record, but by peripheral things like his ability to put a good pitching staff together one year out of eight, or draft a catching prospect, etc. For Cito it is the record that is important, because that suits your argument. For JP it is the exact opposite. No wonder people are frustrated!


    Well said Burt.

    Well lets hope they support halliday or is it Halladaylol.

    And plus I don’t hate you I just think your a MORON.And I lied about posting to you also what prize did you get for winning.


    Burt: Please explain to me why I am the moron. I’m simply pointing out the strengths of JPs regime while also pointing out his shortcomings. All you and your friends do is bash, bash, bash while never admitting that he has done anything right.

    Another thing dumba-ss, Tampa drafting in the top ten every year is due to the fact that until this year, they have won 70 games ONCE!!!!!! in their history. Would you like the Jays to win 60 games for 10 years, so they can draft higher? Not to mention the trades they were able to make because of their high draft picks.

    gsumner: I don’t know why they need four utility guys, but losing Diaz doesn’t matter to me. They got one mediocre guy for another. For me, its a wash, but time will tell I guess. And your point of Jeroloman not being able to hit out of a paper bag? Honestly, what does that mean? Stop looking at his AAA batting average in 57 AB as a way of evaluating his talent

  66. gsjays

    Jerolman has hit between .230 and .260 in his minor league career, has very limited power, and has NEVER hit with risp-this year an impressive .190. The only thing he does is take pitches and get walks.

    Diaz is a career .300+ hitter and consistently hits with a high average with risp. So I wouldnt call him mediocre at all.

    Honestly I don’t comprehend why your here defending this dumb deal and try to sell Jerolman-at best a weak AA hitter.


    Did I read “walks don’t score runs”? Some of these comments are just silly. How many times do you see a lead-off walk coming in to score. Lead-off walks (or any walks for that matter) spell trouble for the opposing pitcher. Walks are rally starters, because they sometimes lead to control problems, which sometimes leads the pitcher to serve one up, for the next batter. They also drive up pitch counts. They are a big part of the game.


    Garry and Burt, you boys having been getting your *** handed to you in the debate department but reply with “you are a moron”. Pretty pathetic if you ask me.

    I am not a fan of JP because of his mouth and cocky like attitude, but I think he has done an ok job with an ok budget. He doesn’t deserve to be fired for anything he has or hasn’t done and I expect him to be here atleast until his contract is up. The only way he gets canned is if Godfrey is told that it’s either you or JP from Mr Rogers but I can’t see that happening.

    Using the Tampa has loads of prospects excuse makes zero sense so please stop making that comment. They were so bad for so long that you are bound to find good players when you draft 1st so many times! The Jays probably would get an average of 5,000 fans/game if they had the same record the Rays have had over the last 10 or so years.

    This franchise is looking good in my opinion since we have a owner that is starting to open up the bank and spend to keep pace in the EAST. The pitching staff is second to none in all of baseball, we have studs in Right, Center and Second and have some future studs rising fast and a pitching staff that won’t skip a beat should Burnett leave.

    I’ve said it before and I will say it again… We are a DH and a shortstop away from being not a good club and excellent club. It wouldn’t surprise me if Snider was our DH next season since Lind seems to have a firm hold on Left for next season and beyond. Sign a Shortstop that can actually contribute effectively offensively and we are lauging. Oh and try and limit the surgeries to 10/year. LOL




    I’ll say it again, batting average is the only thing that matters. Uhhh wait, that is what you think. Stop watching Sunday Night Baseball, Joe Morgan is clouding your mind. Batting average takes a back seat to OBP when evaluating a hitter. Why can’t you understand this. And the hitting w/RISP figure? Ehhh. Not gonna lose my lunch over that. It is a situational type stat that can vary dramatically from year to year. For what his role is going to be, Jeroloman is extremely capable. Screw it, you’re never gonna see it my way, the right way, so whats the point. Its been a pleasure, have a tremendous day.

  70. inception

    Excuse me plus and rmatty – I did not call anyone IN PARTICULAR a moron. Read my post again. Evidently, plus thinks that my reference is to him. Does this mean plus thinks that he is a moron?

  71. dt005

    Why is everyone arguing over OBP and BA from two potential backups who might get to play 50 games a year in the future. It will all be irrelevant when Arencibia comes up and hits BOMBS! Thats what the Blue Jays really need. Not singles or walks…bombs and RBI’s.

  72. welikeroywelikeroy

    I’ve notice Dice-K as a very cheeky pitcher over the past couple of years. He gets ahead of you and then he won’t give a hitter anything good to hit. He is also not afraid of walking hitters to get them to chase.

    Being that type of pitcher, you will always have high pitch counts and you will have lots of walks.

    Typically, pitchers with great command have higher pitch counts, because their stuff is not good enough to be over the plate consistently.

    As a pitcher, Dice-K has great plate coverage and works the corners very well. He is able to live with his breaking stuff down and away, where it should be. This is what I mean by command, and statistics are usually not a good indicator of it.

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